I'm approaching about a year of no online racing now as well. I still fire it up now & then and do a few practice laps, or AI avoidance laps. Still read the forums regularly since there are some great people here...

Quote from Nick A :

I'm not really enjoying the Legends car. It is a thrill to drive in some respects because it's pretty twitchy but I don't seem to be able to find a rhythm in it. I don't think I'll be driving it again, especially because I find the Solstice feels very realistic which gets me really immersed in the game. I think if I was American and understood what the Legends is about I would enjoy it more, but as it is I can relate to the Solstice so much better.

This is not in the USA:
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=765223#post765223
And our very own Nikimere seems to have enjoyed it quite a bit!

LOL,

Who shat in your cereal today? You're on a roll!

Hotter gas is inherantly under more pressure in the same volume, hence it's symantecally correct to state that heat is the primary factor. Effluent velocity is higher than influent velocity because the turbine is not perfectly efficient. Ideally it would be the same and all the energy from the expansion would go into the turbine. What makes this all possible? Heat!

Quote from TurboLag :

Exhaust temperature has NOTHING to do with it!

Actually, you are dead wrong.

The turbine does not work like a pinwheel from the fair. Influent exhaust gas velocity has comparitively little to do with how much energy is dumped into the turbine, the larger component is the pressure differential across the turbine. The turbine is mainly driven by the expansion of gases inside the turbine. This is precisely why turbocharged vehicles benfit from larger exhaust systems since the pressure drop is greater and therefore spool times are shorter. This is also why the positive feed back effect you correctly mentioned happens - but not directly because of the increased flow as cylinder pressure rises; what rises with cylinder pressure? OH right, the EGT skyrockets - often causing the turbine housing to actually glow.

I don't care what any moron tells you, that is the truth.

If you don't think so... get ahold of a turbocharger, and try to spin it up with just air. Then try it with a blowtorch and see what happens

Last edited by Ball Bearing Turbo, Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:42.

You can't be serious....

Quote from Michael Denham :

About the sense of community in iRacing...I am not sure what you are basing that on Sam, but I've found it great so far. I've raced against many people lots of times and when I see people I know often they will say hi and ask how things are. I had a bad race recently and got in the way of someone who was coming up to lap me. I was so frustrated with my performance in the race by this point that I quit. The next day I checked the forum and got this message.... "Hey I noticed you disconnected after our coming together. I guess 'cos you felt bad, well don't. It was just an accident, stuff happens. You made me concentrate on catching second and I ran my fastest laps yet trying. You'll do better next time. I have no worries racing with you in the future. Take it easy." And I've also had another 3 PMs from people saying how much they enjoyed racing with me etc. That's not happened once in LFS... Anyway, I guess all I'm saying is it's easy to judge from the outside, but only when you give it a go can you understand what it's actually like. I could go on about physics and missing features and other things but really I just wanted to mention that one thing as it was not really based on first hand experience.

Indeed, that's what I've noticed on the forums so far. Since I haven't really raced since last year I have not ventured online on iRacing so far, but what you say confirms what I've been seeing on the forum. People seem pretty cool, there's a lot of intelligent folk for the most part and everyone seems to have an inate sense of respect, generally speaking of course, for each other. If anything I think the iRacing community is shaping up pretty nice thus far; I hope it continues. I wasn't sure where he was getting that from either and I'm glad someone else mentioned it since things were feeling a little sideways.

It's always precarious to even mention something else on this forum, and I think most know that I've defended LFS like crazy for ages, and I still have nothing against it or the devs or anything... I want to make that clear. LFS was/is a pioneer in this genre in many ways, and it's a hell of an acheivement for (basically) one person, that's for certain.

Someone spoke of the freedom of LFS, which is great, however if I want to race with people I'm still f*cked with LFS. I went online tonight to try and get a feel for LFS again after running iRacing, to have fun and say hi to some folks perhaps but I wanted to run TBO. Guess what? NOTHING. There was not one single bloody combo I was interested in because all the servers in LFS were either drift, cruise, or some combo (ASNAT/GTR) that I have no hope of having fun it since people seem to run it 24/7. To be totally honest, I'd rather a system like iRacing where everyone is in the same boat if you want to compete. Practice the combos for the series, and get it good. Freedom is fine, and if I lived in the UK it'd probably be different - but in the Americas it's slim pickings for LFS.

Someone above said "vote with your feet", well, great cliche to quote... but I don't want/have to choose. I still like LFS, it has better variety ilke FWD, turbos, AWD etc. I can and will choose to play both. However when I get "serious" about simracing, it's pretty obvious what I would pick - better physics, better graphics, better sound, better tracks, and a timezone that I live in all belong to iRacing.

Which track do you find them on? Red Light dist in South City?

Quote from SamH :

You have your priorities in sim racing, I have mine. I'm not a lesser mortal for not paying into iR.

No of course not, you're exactly right though - I'm glad you said that.

Because likewise, I'm also not FOR paying into it; which is the feeling I get from some folks that act like they don't play it for some bogus moral reason with their pricing structure. Personally I think no demo or offline is odd as well, but whatever. But for some reason some people act like it's the moral high ground, nose in the air "hmph, I refuse to pay out of principle" attitude that winds me up a little.

But confusing that issue with the quality of the sim (right now just in terms of driving experience) is really a strange thing to do.

Bottom line: If it's simply value you're after, obviously LFS has lots. If it's simply the best driving physical model available publicly at the moment, AND you don't care about the cost, then iRacing has it. It's like video cards: a GTX280 is still faster than a 4870 for now, but it costs a lot more. Whilst a 4870 will do you great, if you only care about having the fastest single GPU card made so far then the GTX280 is for you. The 4870 is still a better value overall though.

Last edited by Ball Bearing Turbo, Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:38.

Ah, so I guess asking you to relate to my point about driving ... and sims is a bit over your head at this point then

Have you driven iRacing Sam?

You keep talking about different things and setting an argument type of tone that I'm not out to pursue...

Last edited by Ball Bearing Turbo, Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:23.

Quote from Jonesy_ :

Only thing it comes out on top is the driving feel, which isn't all in a racing sim.

(add sound & graphics to your list btw)



I was pretty sure that tire physics and vehicle dynamics were the crux of a racing sim. If it really was as you say, then I wouldn't have played LFS for the last number of years. rFactor is the king of content (when you count mods), yet I didn't play it much. Why? Because the physics were trash (save for Neils'). Now there's better physics to be had, and that's what matters. It also happens to look and sound better. GTR2 had brake heat, and damages etc but I didn't play that much - same reason. See where I'm going with this? Content is a dime a dozen. If a sim does not have rock solid tire physics and vehicle dynamics, the rest simply does not matter one little bit - therefore I content that indeed, driving feel IS in fact "all" in a racing sim

Let's just use the old LFS defense in this situation: "they're still working on it, don't whine about missing features... they'll be added" Check my review, especially the end of it - I don't have rose coloured glasses about the current overall picture with iRacing, even as I stated above. But the driving experience is definitely superior over there and that's, for me, the most important thing in a ... driving sim! The missing things will be addressed and probably before we've passed away.

Quote :

Can't remember who said this originally, but it went somewhat along the lines of "They all suck, so you just have to play the one sucking least".

Pretty sure it was Shotglass. I didn't realize how right he was back then though.

I said LFS was great value - didn't I?

If all you care about is having a great sim and money is no object, iRacing is it. If you're concerned about the dough more than the sim then iRacing is not relevant to you. The cost is not part of the sim, it's totally irrelevant to an objective comparision of the quality of the sim's features or lack thereof so I'll feel free to compare them all I want, thanks. They are "like for like" in that they are both sims, period. I realize people get bent out of shape over the cost, oh well.

Quote from Luke.S :

Meh stay with lfs just a a year or so more and we should have breakable parts new physics and no more alpha badge.

LOL, I can tell you have been around for 10 months!

That was a good one

Quote from Nobo :

LFS is for me unbeaten when it comes to physics

Well, now that iRacing is out the only thing LFS is top dog at anymore is bad pickup racing.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

My 2p: I think people who get frustrated at the pace of LFS updates probably have quite empty lives.

The old "Do something else and come back when there's updates" thing really does work. I get the feeling some people have been refreshing the LFS home page every five minutes for three years waiting for S2 final.

Perhaps, and yet sim racers tend to view this more of a hobby than a game - it's niche product, not a mainstream one therefore what were the alternatives: rFactor? GTR? NetKar? (crap, more crap, and not bad if you like open wheelers and software that probably won't work). So really what you're saying is go find a new hobby since the market is full of shit where even the best offerings are lacking in drastic fashion. At least there's a serious contender on the market now, and whilst iRacing makes LFS look silly in pretty much every aspect it's still in the same boat as LFS overall. :doh: I guess unfinished software is the norm nowdays or something.... However, 50 people working to make it better is going to mean progress will actually happen at a rate that matters, and iRacing will have important features added to it long before Scawen flips to that page on his to-do list. That's not a knock, it's just a logical fact.

LFS was great value, no question. 5 years in development should have a lot more to show for it overall in terms of just being a marketable product - but nobody can deny they've done great things for 2/3 people. Heh, IIRC the original plan was 4 stages over the course of a year :P.

I like what Scawen did too, and I admire him as a person. LFS was a passion for me for a long time but it'd take some serious changes / additions for me to get excited about it again. If I am going to get into simracing seriously again then I'll sub to iRacing for sure.

Last edited by Ball Bearing Turbo, Wed, 9 Jul 2008 20:01.

Quote from spyshagg :

I haven't touched sim's in half a year... But I just got an invite by mail to try this Sim (who sent it? thanks)

Its 20$


How does the driving model feel? pretty good? lfs good?
Does it run well on 2400mhz athlon with 7800gs ?

thanks

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=851911#post851911

I'm not sure if the lag is just due to rotational inertia or what the deal is there. Vacuum disappears very quickly as illustrated by the digital boost gauge in the XRR, that part seems pretty correct. There doesn't appear to be any of the positive feedback aspect of turbocharging. As cylinder pressure increases so does the EGT (drastically) which creates a larger pressure differential between the inlet and outlet side of the turbine - which is the primary ingredient for spooling by a large factor.

In any event, I'm certain that the current model is just a very simplistic approximation of turbocharging, as is the engine simulation overall (per a different conversation with Scawen). It'll be improved one day.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

Could you point out where I have been hypocritical?

Actually he stated that you were being "hyporcritical", get it straight!



To the guy above, since you have the literacy of a baboon (you know who you are) I can't be bothered to read much of what you ... "write", much less put any manner of confidence in your observations.

I can't believe people like this will be running the world one day. Can you imagine the company emails? "i wont 2 hav a meetin 2day in ur ofise get teh teem 2gethur 4 sum brane stormin or yer fyrd lolz11" :rolleyes:


Idiocracy is actually happening, isn't it.

...no, sadly I won't be taking any technical advice from this guy.

Ok, well everyone has to look stupid sometimes. For years I always assumed the BoV/Recirc was soley pressure activated. Turns out after some quick research that it's a combination of post-throttle vac and pre-throttle pressure that activates it, not just one or the other.

There's plenty of cars BTW that can get to good amounts of positive manifold pressure in neutral. There's a video floating around here that I uploaded a few years ago where 12lbs or so is acheived just by reving the engine; it just depends on the system in question. That phenomenon is just about efficiency range / compressor map on the turbocharger vs engine characterisitics.

This also means I can almost gaurantee that there are other problems with the modelling in LFS based on something Scawen said to me about it in December. Pardon me while I dig it up.

Last edited by Ball Bearing Turbo, Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:28.

Quote from Hyperactive :

I just did some laps with the adv. legend on the Summit point raceway. Only way I can describe the experience is "properly scary". The track has lots of huge bumps and few very good corners, both fast and slow, the only thing really missing is the elevations. The corners themselves are not really that hard but it is the bumps really that elevate the combo on new level. It's damn scary with the legend because the little thing gets so easily sideways that it's almost tiring. I mean, I just did over 20 laps and I smiled so much that my face hurts

Indeed, it's like the LX6 experience only at least twice as much fun and dangerous. You HAVE to steer with the rear to be fast so it's a constant balancing act alright.

As a side note, I've concluded that iRacing's long/lat force combining is superlatively implemented. The tire physics in this thing are 10/10.

Ok Tristan I'm not going there overall, but I have to point out that:

A) When you go WoT, last time I checked you should be at or near 0 vacuum very quickly (almost instantly at idle, not quite so at higher RPM) due to equalization when you slam the throttle open.

B) Why the hell would a blowoff valve always be open under vacuum; you would be taking in unfiltered ambient air almost all the time, which would be silly. The turbocharger would also never be able to pressurize the manifold if it didn't close until it was under pressure - quite the conundrum! :doh:

Judas Preist.

Wow.

Quote from Michael Denham :

I can't get into the Advanced Legends car either. Just don't enjoy oval one bit unfortunately. Usually I zone out around the middle of each race and then end up just counting down the laps until the end. But the Advanced legends is a fun car on the road courses at least.

Indeed, that car is a blast to drive with a road setup! Are they going to do a road series with it? That would be sweet. You can REALLY steer the car with the throttle. Might even be more fun than the skippy, it's a dangerous bugger.

Quote from NateDawg80126 :

First off, whoever thinks of rFactor as arcade like simply has not given it time, the game like every racing sim has a learning curve, it takes a while before any new sim feels authentic and real to you personally.

Quote from evilpimp :

It even beats all the other simulators physics. iRacing seems to have also been very close to LFS.

iRacing doesn't take much "getting used to" since it does what you would expect. It's the only thing that I can quite comfortably say that the tire physics have LFS beat considerably, and it makes everything else look plain silly.

Necroposting is where it's at, give the guy a break!

Quote from thisnameistaken :

To be honest I've only driven the Solstice, and I find it a frustrating car to drive. It's hard to judge the simulation fairly when it fails to hold your interest for more than a few laps.

Yeah but isn't even the UF1 frustrating for you?

/runs

Quote :

It's worth trying for a month, but you might get bored of it quickly.

Indeed; if the lack of cars doesn't put you off then it's the best out there right now - unless you're a glutton for pickup racing that is.

Quote from Crommi :

The way I see it, they got good solid base to build on. It still lacks features here and there but those shouldn't be too hard to add down by the road.

I see it that way too. It seems no developer can make something truly great and FINISH the damn thing. Why is that? Financial pressures I guess. The only things we get in finished form nowdays is simple crap. Age of Conan is the same, groundbreaking but unfinished. LFS will pretty much be the same a year from now, iRacing probably will be a lot better even than now in a year which will only widen the gap. Probably by then the private leagues thing will be sorted and of course races will likely be happening constantly.